Lincoln Center New York May 20 1984 a reunion concert your fancy brothers tell me I'll play. No they just reached a lot of people you know, with their exuberance the attitude both an old friend from 20 years ago that I mean they're all great singers they're all so different. When it came to singing there were four recognizable human beings fallible human beings you know, no work. They weren't watching every step they made clearly even though they were thoroughly professional. Oh well I never heard those kind of songs before although I close up you know I've heard them on records but I hadn't heard them close up all those the legendary people who used to sing about Brennan on the moor or Roddy McCauley, but it was as if it just existed yesterday in somewhat ironic but true that the most positive I've seen here in the 1960s the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem got their first break not in Ireland but right here in America right now they're rehearsing for their upcoming reunion concert to be given here in New York City. Liam Tom and Paddy Clancy the three brothers from County Tipperary and their friend Tommy Makem fables cross that out right thank you just another television show. what I'll do is we'll be here rolling and then I'll give the cute action. Many was this feeling countless, but the first one was the Ed Sullivan Show which was probably the biggest influence of all.You want to go the toilet, is too late no none of us from underneath or sovereign counties of Tipperary enormous the thrilling voices of the fancy dress ball now , Our following was mostly people who were interested in folk music. They weren't Irish oriented anyway most probably Jewish all national and the Ariston take any notice I was because there were specifically Irish places where hiring entertainment went on, and we never played in those places by but the Ed Sullivan Show once they saw some, that I was like getting a blessing from the Pope all the Irish Catholics in there in America would come to our concerts right the day after the Ed Sullivan Show. We had to go to Chicago to do shows at the Playboy Club and Tom and I were walking down the street looking for digs we had the sweaters around our shoulder and we were not known in Chicago at all and one fella said hey boys I saw you last night you look great. Tom turned to me and said hey they're famous. Oh back to our beginnings the banks of the river sure County Tipperary. to me it had the Shakespearean scholars puzzled for centuries to try and find out what colino Castorama meant until they discovered was an old Irish song which means Colleen oak I am a young girl cos yura Mae from the banks of the River Hill Castle sacked in war Chieftains are scattered far truth is a fixit's star it's true isn't it it's amazing how fast it all happens when you think that over in that dungeon there when we were kids the manacles were still on the wall the patches of the blood they're stained into the into the into the limestone we used to be looking at that I mean that's not that long ago terrible now to think of the damage that we did while we're playing games around this place you know he was not hurt ann bolyn Henry the eighth's wife was born, that's right fellow rotators in school and Boland was born in the almond casting Carrick On Sure, while her mother was on a visit to London. You know there was no woods on that when when I was growing up all you could see was the rock to bare rock with the caves there was hazel trees we threw out there and big major mess because a fire was in our head but look at, they see the island below swimming out of that, we used to go down there and get a stick steel Forks out of the kitchen and tie the fork to the end of the state remember walking down there and lifting the stones you see the IRA's head peering out from under the thing and you get him right behind them they made a lovely something. Oh Tommy Makem is Irish Pavilion is just around the corner from the old Blue Angel where we played in the early days and it was an ideal spot for a rehearsal, for the big night at Lincoln Center Katie let's move from May comes in 57 state New York to Makem in Katy County Armagh the hope of the universe that's Pat McClellan was a neighboring I was passing by and I said we're gonna have to go through the town Pat, and Pat says when did you get up on the horse Edwin's right through Ito UMaine when we lived in that one do you every day I was raised there so but he okay was born in a house along here but they did away with these houses and put in this this. Hey Mike nice on the batter what's that scar for a woman there's the garage I want to work yeah subject I did, I worked me in the office in there I don't know for years and years part 3 years and years after I left student my first job there don't tell you see so fairly well my own true love this is the town of caricature in Tipperary that we bid our farewells to so many years ago but that was though down where we've come from was the north gate of the town this is where we were all born. I was born in that room there I don't know where the rest were born, in that room there and I'm told I was born in the front row and of course we used to rush out of here on Sunday mornings up to mass and they say the nearer the church the more you're late for mass and we were always late This is St. Nicholas's church in St. Nicholas's party is one of the few churches which is really realistic about passing the collection plate because you can see the dollar sign over the door so you know what's expected. When you walk this entire street shakes with the sound of that Bell and our lives were to a great extent regulated by that were births deaths marriages. You always know whether it was a man or a woman because it was over a woman the Sun is on the and I wish I could remain me Bridge Street I used to work on moon bar here, didn't after I left the area to work last night, see I'm used to being back here oh yes you don't stop you remember when I was here the way of remember will tell me Thomas the total yesterday you have new wee bit of an airport on you nobody did that we remember she give you one by everyone off the way here. I got many's a good song offer, I draw those aren't you guys anyone who know down the turn that fella let you go now the boy is still land on the monument this was the center of our universe wasn't a dis little area around here these streets we read within shouting distance of our mother that was the important thing about this area was the important things in life happened here did the wetness the Chrisman's the general the funerals. I carried many a coffin in that gate well we are very relative we all carried our father and mother in through there we were in here at the christenings of all our nieces and nephews times two when this town was much wilder than it is now. I remember a fierce husband-and-wife fight that went all the way down the Main Street across new Street of Williams Street and I remember the entire town was behind him by the time they got here and the guard the sergeant of the guards, coming up and trying to separate them ,the husband and wife and he hit the husband a belt at which point the wife pulled up her dress and took a poker up forever stocking and went for the guard or interfering between their in their love fight depends . Oh the water when you're doing a concert open the holy mother dear I was telling fortune oh you were telling boy - no sorry dressed up like an Indian I like an Indian are sweet nor does a long time ago tell them reading people's powers bring the guards when they believe everything and her leave doors like a Canaanite on behalf of the people, we gave a hearty welcome to Tommy Makem. So put the house together, a show band I used to sing with before I went off to the green views of America they're called the Clipper tones and I met Jim Hughes on the street he said you come do a gig with us I said it'd be delighted to. We used to go every Saturday night to the dance in the city hall Nama one other place in Katy no not like the rest of it it was a bit shy couldn't talk to the girls at all so we put him insane in one time for a fortnight and you have to say something nice to her to get the conversation started tell us is lovely hair or she's wearing a beautiful dress or she's a smashing dancer or something nice to get the conversation started. we hammered it into him for a fortnight and after the fortnight we went to the dance and of course all the Katy boys was watching him you see see how he was going to do it he got up enough courage - this guarantee dance and her dance in the middle of the floor and one of the boys and Katy all was stared near him to hear what he was going to say to the girl and he was over here to say you know for a fat girl you don't sweat too much I've gotten a lot of mileage over that of a storyteller the first time they heard you tell it San Francisco in 1961 I told it man isn't man is a tame but I was just bringing it all back home again where I started it around and there are little counted on summer's almost , we watch opposite here so no don't don't judge him there's a big ship sailing on the end the alioli and Leone on the old there's a big ship sailing great place for Quitman tops and rolling hoops and then in the winter time down the street we put the water down and it would freeze summer lightly frosting have a skate we never skate down the street I learned to secularize Sunday Sunday mornings and after Mass this was a great spot for a pitch and toss. I remember all the lads out there with the - half-pennies on a bit of a stick throwing them up you know heads or tails my mother has gone to church she told me not to play with you because you're in the dirt and to the Picasso Georgie I did a Picasso clean it's because I have the Whooper company Marjorie we were a cheerful pointy teeth this last Christmas the dreams were back in our hometown club be temporary we were down on St. Stephen's Day with the Ren in the morning of St. Stephen's Day the day after Christmas we used to go out a little dead bird in the holly bush. We'd dress ourselves up with all any of our mother's clothes or any unusual clothes we could get black in our faces we had a holly bush do we decorate with ribbons and papers and we go around to the neighbours like that disguise and with the dead bird in the bush we'd sing the rents are and collect money for the and they'd used to go the render and the king of all verses evens day was cut in the fours although he was little he thought it was great jump up me lads and give us a trait as I was going to kill the doll I met to run upon the wall up when a wattle and knocked him down and got him into character rolling rolling where's your nest is in the bush the ifs in the tree the holly tree were all the boys to follow me home and give us a penny to bury the rat, like one of the run three miles or 40 players or more demon interval for the directly visible it since it on the board I happen but so they are on the way our follow me are my ankle button and they are but many herbal to do no harm mrs. patty Japanese woman are very open up but when she gave us that many my mom or something because you are mad but I was read what it does as well we had a bigoted salient mate on Adeste Fideles. But we also had a him for all seasons as well not belong acknowledge our goes to hell they give million Rochester hope but happen Duke was Hanuman to the Senate and even though we got our ''born in sweaters'' there some of them are great some of them yeah look at them their first ones came from here there's a free sweater Tommy is gonna be there oh I'm never too far away look double each other thank you I didn't think you cared they're all rigged up for Lincoln Center welcome back to New York it's all the baby okay well and Maria they are of chakra more there it is by the grand City Hall in New York as the psalm says features wait and then wait and then wait for the mayor I suppose you always have to wait to see a minute there our friend Ed Koch when we say come in the year of our Lord eighteen hundred and six we set sail from the col key of Cork, I started out many years ago New York to get a little park built down by the Hudson River when we met him here at City Hall. He said to me, Tom I'm the mayor now is there anything you need done with the hands up there, we go why you had gone to town but vision when she saw us was the next best thing to Pacific reception that's a lot different from the first time we ever arrived in New York Steve when we went for petit Casey my brother Tom and myself retrievers on that ship the Marine flasher from Southampton to New York we had no address in Canada we had a visa for Canada we had no notion of what kind of a job we might get who we might meet or what the place was going to be like and we had a very small amount of money we probably had enough to keep us going for three and a half weeks. Now you take with you right a photograph of your mother or your family or what have you you take your toothbrush you take a pen and you might have a little whiskey. If you were looking right but mostly have a flood or perhaps you were a week under the ship with little community t'was nice but then the moment had to come when you always though it was inevitable that would come the joy to walk down that gangplank and leave that ship and then you're on your own we had to get a train from New York to Toronto and didn't have one address and when we got off the train and all the people got out, got their bags got into taxis, and started going off in their own direction we just stood there we had no address nowhere to go Tom went and had a haircut I don't know why but that's lead in anyway. There was a barbershop in the railway station walked out of the railway station now I could have turned left right or straight ahead they were the only Road Road I went straight ahead and I walked for about half a mile and I came to a little dinky Hotel and I went in and they had a room we slept that night in that room and we had plans the following morning to go out and get a place to live and jobs and find out how to live in North America Greenwich Village New York City USA. was a great place to start off it was the mecca for the young actors and artists anyone striving to make it in New York City in the arts had to start off in Greenwich Village this little theater behind us here played a great role in the beginnings of our performing in New York paddy my brother Patty and I came to New York in 1951 and my first experience with the set of theatre behind us is I produced and directed the hello tradition records office we had that down a few blocks down the street here too and at night planning what recordings were going to put out I would sit in there and at nights they'd be writing it down and planning what we're going to the following day you know what lt's different without planning for music and at night we had a few drinks. We used to tear into a few songs. Paddy and I had quite a good repertory of the old songs we didn't consider them folk songs we just solaced that we knew and with other performers we performed here on Saturday night at the midnight special I think we called you 1959 Liam Clancy and myself were in a play we're a play of Paul Vincent Carol's called shadow and substance we were playing to police and a couple of men campus here's one night said they were opening a book club down the village and we were living in the village at the same and the folk club was to be called Gary's fourth peg it later became known as Garrity spoke city you were around them all the time and they just sang so many songs all the time you just you couldn't help but the first album I made, there was one song on it that it was an old song from I'd heard on an old banjo record someplace. But I did that song the way the Clancy Brothers I thought would have done it you know if you know in their style Ireland was a very inhibiting place at that time and could be stood there's a whole lot of repressions you know there's so much would have been repressed coming here to Greenwich Village you could see yourself just walking around the streets today there's a freedom there are no social mores to which you have to conform either cultural sexually sartorial ever anything went with a burning bush a bomb of its power top I was running so to sister my great ambition was to be an actor I went from here and did some television shows in New York when they were doing life theater on television. Being a group and in strength you get a lot of courage ah you don't have to grapple with the individual decisions you can kick things around and you can't talk about the future and you can talk about planning when I was sitting down in that office in tradition records Tommy Makem came down and came in one day with his hand in a sling well he was working in a foundry up in Dover New Hampshire, and two tonne of iron or something he couldn't work and he was wandering around and he had Tommy had the idea to because he had been acting in that nipping in a show banned in Ireland but he wanted to put out an LP and that gave me the idea with Tommy to form the group by using this was one of the first group Adele that was recorded in March of 1956 and Kenny Goldstein's kitchen in the bronze but I never thought when we were doing that record that I was able to singing at all because that was Owney I think all of us at that time felt that we were going to do other on singing what we did the rising oh yeah well that was just that we were passing through I remember I was delighted because plenty paid me $30 for singing a song on your phone Am I when we sang a rebel song those days it wasn't to present any political point of view except to show that there were interesting signs about what you know it was a just because it is an interesting human expression happened to be an art form of a rebel song I could be involved work song could be a love song many times. I think the folk songs always told more truth about history than the history books anyway, as somebody said written history is nothing more than the propaganda of the victory. For me I never heard a singer as good as Liam. Ever he was just the best balancing I've ever heard in my life it still it's probably I don't think I I can think of anybody who's a better ballad singer than Liam or if our minds it's always a certain brotherly rivalry between Paddy and Tom resentment of his young brother coming along being able to play and sing and somehow bringing the musical side of the other group bringing that into focus was a certain resentment kid brother with the hell is he think he is and we had a lot of fights that way but that also brought Tommy Makem and I close, I my eye I - why remember when we did this one drinking sounds we've seen it down some houses like you said okay a father I suppose we recorded that in the theater you were doing Ulysses they sang all the boys came and sang on the pro that used to be at the way to our city it was a great gang at the boy fortunate just lay my we didn't have a style we kept sharing the latest stages he didn't know what they were talking about we just sang the songs as loudly as we could because of were four of us there I'm Liam buddy's guitar style because he had a small guitar and there would be one microphone he'd have to hold the guitar up like this and play it like this sort would be here to keep us in tune at one point in our careers. I try to play the bagpipes, we would play the bagpipes and walk onstage and then we'll stop the bike play from the start to sink nobody gonna give you the keys up the bagpipes and all and change already give it up but we say we were going through, Oh this was the one we really went professional on we even had the name the Clancy Brothers now in guitars and everything and that was the first that's actually the first time the mainthe Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem with you on a record I'd love to find that piece of paper with all the possible group claims that we've had what do you mean piece of paper that was a whole exercise book see Bangor manda tinker's we tied around here did the Chieftains yeah the druid moonshiners everything we used to try and do three weeks that it would be three weeks of one-night stands and then great and we did that we had a we had a rule that we would do that and we would do that maybe for six months and then at the end of six months we'll stop altogether and go our own separate ways maybe for a month. And I think that helped when we came back together professionally among real records signed us up after we did help The Ed Sullivan TV they became interested immediately when they saw some television and this was the first one of those thought Pete Seeger was on the banjo. That's the first record that we wore sweaters of Jewish managed New York and Marty Ehrlichman and he thought we had great potential but he couldn't figure out how to package us well he, he wanted to package yourself though and he just didn't know how to do it until he saw these sweaters that our mother had sent us mm-hmm as soon as he saw the the sweaters he said that's it he said that's it that's exactly what I want and my creation on the 17th of August the multitudes as ever and our decision may I speak at the Gosselin to see the races we just couldn't believe the luck that we had couldn't believe the luck of being successful and playing places like the play by clubs and going back to Hefner's apartment afterwards and he thought chasing the bunny he didn't get enough sleep or ubo door making you be talkin' and yakking and at parties and singing all night and you'd have to move on the next day to go to some place that's what it was mostly physical thing but there was very little mental pain because things just sort of fell together for us with me whoo-hoo. Randy and me last only spittin away meet the people who produce the show you had to go and drink with them after the show and the late nights and a lot of drinking my only irate right and eventually you the hangovers became very great for me and I decided at that time that I'd better stop completely on alcohol altogether and that was ten years ago and I haven't had a drink since then and I find that mornings are a lot better being feted by people like Pat O'Brien finding that Bing Crosby wanted to record with Maureen O'Hara wattanaram Carly's it's just unbelievable been offered her own television series oh no it was very hard Oh the million denomination mother wine persuasion the pontiff my father go on it the goal of the day yeah but this is our best Carnegie Hall lie it was more fun for us than for the audience because at times we used to stand on that stage looking out at them and they doing their show for us over the night the fellas hat came tumbling down from the top balcony hi Tom if Tommy shouted up I hope your head wasn't in it and then threw threatened throw it up - and who became a great happening and what's recording a for Greenfields on that pony feels i wrote in the car gone from John dog jr. II hate in my head yet and then when I got back home back to John dog I wrote it down in his paper 1968 my in-laws Oh oh gee well the photograph on this album obviously was taking the Ulster Hall in Belfast. I see by the crowd behind, that was one of the few places really had the people stacked up behind us I remember him very nervous walking into that situation wondering what kind of a reception we were going to get and if it I was just looking at the songs on the back here realizing that we decided to do an entire evening of love songs well we weren't we weren't nearly as nervous as the police were very diplomat who was the policeman oh he's to stay in our dressing room why we were on stay was if he was a superintendent of the RIC if they're all using he was enough our years for you see and he had a big black thorn stick and he was there I don't know what he was doing in our dressing room he seen his look over drink he's deaf exactly what he did when he got it we had a bottle of whiskey as soon as he goes onstage he drank about Louise right a wonderful thing happened at that time there was a bunch of students at Queen's University in Belfast and a bunch of Catholic students and they invaded a bunch of Protestant students to go and to hear these four boys singing these songs you see and they paid for the tickets and they brought these their friends very reluctantly to the concert and they had such a great time that the second time we were back in Belfast the Protestant students want to take us and brought the Health Authority and a fella came in one night and give us four black preceptory badges which is a very secret organization or something of the Orange Order. I can find and obviously I could never do it but the trying was the fun, you know and to come over here and do as much as you could and see Eric and I don't know whether it was the movies or walking at certain set the seed in the imagination that there was lovely things outside that small is a town in Tipperary exciting things happening out in the world it's a pity let them all go on and just spend your life in one spot, die there I'd never heardthe holy ground until we were at a party in San Francisco with a bunch of priests and they sang this song little did they realize that the holy ground was the red-light district of Cork Harbor otherwise I don't think they would have been singing it and we didn't have the courage to tell them we didn't know either tell you the truth but it immediately caught our fancy especially when it was possible to get an entire audience shouting very fact that we never intended to be singers professionals and that we didn't care whether they liked us or not. The fact that we're all out there on the state not that they didn't like us or not but we intended to go back to the theatre and that was our job and we were taking that very seriously and that's probably probably why we weren't as successful at acting as we were at singing was that the theatre was very seriously where is he the music that was what we did for fun and that fun is the thing that communicates itself do you know material came from a more innocent age and in our very complex out of society in New York especially, a lot of these songs come from nice little country villages and they have the air of sort of past innocence in a pastoral setting and they were kind of refreshing in a big Part in America we were kind of young folks and we had a helluva neck and we were big chancers and we were willing to go into the middle of any place but our two big feet in the Midlands say here I am and felt the other son still see you I keep telling myself that I'm going to retire and fish and I love to fish in this little river by my house and I telling the wife, sell these cows now and she said I'm listening to you saying that for the last ten years now and you have no notion I would no sooner tell her I was going to sell out everything in return that I'd be making plans to go to America and do something or making plans to get more cows or something. so I suppose I'll die in harness, I hope so regrets never know I do it all again I enjoyed it so much this has been a great life for me and I've enjoyed the performing, enjoy the theater enjoy the scene and I'm looking forward to doing these concerts with Tommy and Paddy and Liam again. I am enjoying singing even more now than when I started because I think I have a better grip of it I know more know what it's about and I think I'll continue to do it until the day I die a supposed us in the blood like runs in the family like a wooden leg love to be an architect love to be a writer love to be a firmly maybe even in this day and age Roxy you can't do everything and there's regret that you can't do everything would you obviously can I would have loved to stay tall maybe with my Marin's when they were all that would be nice this my father Bob Cancy and this is my mother Johanna McGraw was Romanies but she went out before they were married she would go to America 1911 and my father was to follow but when the Titanic went down 1912 no way was he gonna cross the Atlantic. If she hadn't come back tom says he to be the mayor of Boston by now over here and my mother's parents Thomas McGraw her father and her mother was Alice Colorfully now the to play this is one picture now what actually was two pictures put together my mother when she was in America she had these two photographs for parents and she put them together and had to enlarge and my grandmother always complained about it because the photograph of the grandmother was taken when she was much older than the grandfather she thought that wasn't fair I oh dear you there's a picture of my mother Sara making a source of many we'll play all the blood all we that's me and the ooh look away I Oh we Oh if my true love she were gone I you only fine where or why roars alarm well lousy Oh Oh - Oh we Oh summertime is coming trees are sweetly blue I you know why - time hold our revels now are ended these are actresses have foretold you were all spirits and are melted into air into thin air like the baseless fabric of this vision cloud-capped palaces gorgeous towers solemn temples the great globe itself yay all which they inherit shall dissolve and like this insubstantial pageant faded leave not a rack behind where such stuff as dreams are made on and our little life is rounded with a sleep I've asked me in Shakespeare's horses have you no homes to go to we've got a lady in Lobby you'll see if he's got 15 years from now same time same place with a little song called the parting glass Oh money the day I spend I spend it in gold company and all the harm that a I've done all us it was to me and all I've done for one Tahoe it to memory now I can't soulful to be the parting glass good night and joy be with you Oh walakum rains that aha they are sorry oh my boy and all the sweethearts that air I have they would wish me one more day but since my not I hate your eyes and you should nah I will gently rise and I'll sound the call good night and joy be like madness safer thanks for coming you
Liam Clancy Interview On TV3 2016
you're saying that you don't remember saying that no I think he made it up yeah well I mean with Dylan you never know because he's he is possibly one of the greatest lawyers that's ever been born no it's very possible we did. we I know we had a real great philosophical many great philosophical Asian to the night chats you know it's very possible but he's got a a vice grip memory. So if he says it probably did happen and I mean it for a Dylan fan its extraordinary for a whole variety of reasons but that the footage that we haven't seen before the reaction to him when he went to a trick first of all but I have to say in terms of the people and you featured quite heavily in us but yourself and Dave Van ronk were the only two of his contemporaries that I didn't detect bitterness are a bit of envy or the green-eyed monster there was there was an awful lot I know I know of three people contemporaries of ours or friends of jail deny myself who committed suicide Paul Clayton who was old friend songwriter he was so devastated he pulled an electric fire into the table with him and Peter lafarge who wrote to one of Johnny Cash's big songs called him drunken Raz don't matter anymore Peter lafarge he said his wrists in my batter and Phil Ochs hanged himself and and that one one of the late nights that I had with Dylan I said he doesn't ever bother you. You know that whatever not a conscience that your success was so devastating to these guys he said well I can't take that on board you know people do what they do for me to take that on as a as a lump a guilt would not mmm in the theory that he did he couldn't take on being the voice of a generation either he never helped at that that was something that was put on him he didn't yeah it frightened him it frightened him because he was very very insecure when he came to Greenwich Village first and he run around with us and he was always looking for affirmation. You know he's very very insecure and I think nobody was more amazed than he was when he hit the big time just zoomed off into superstardom well your place as a legend of Irish focus there's no question about it and you're in there now I think you're stepping into the shoes of paddy Reilly is it and Jim McCann I think on Mondays night gig said he credited you with making Irish folk music cool at once again is there a revival and the whole thing of Irish folk music and how would you react to being credited with making it cool once more. Well it's a cyclical thing, it comes and goes you know and different kinds of music become popular then they begin to pall on people and then another cycle comes around. I always stuck with folk music because I felt it was a very honest kind of music hi it was a history of the people in song they say the written history is nothing more than the propaganda of the winner hmm you know but folk songs tell the story restoring reality it's one of your you're talking about you know you decided to stock with folk and if you look us say folk jazz classical the three musical genres where we're age experience wisdom and and long-term mastery of your craft and gets acknowledged and gets more praised as you get older I mean you know in pop you can be huge for five minutes you can make 50 million retire and then two weeks later nobody's ever heard of it and they're not interested whereas I'm looking Dillon is know what he'll be he's 60. He's just on a series of three albums that are maybe no he's 63 I'm 71 and he's five years younger than me well again he see again you never know with him but what he's he's having a lake bloom Christie has just made one of his best friend arts you've and you I mean you've never gone away but people are rediscovering what you did well I'm a great believer in the philosophy I heard a lion from the port bertolt brecht loosely translated says where the man's dying breath he must be prepared to make a fresh start and I think that unless you keep excited about every day and unless you keep that the child inside you full of wonderment you're gonna age you're going to you got to go stayed and that's one thing I never want to do so you're still keeping it as exciting as it was back in the days when we saw I did it I find it incredible still that I wake up in the morning and I have to color cameras in my head and I am looking at the planet and the colors and the and the wonderment around me and I say you know why question miracles is that this thing is a mirror is it the secret it not to be become jaded and not to become cynical liam is is well how can you it's all you know it'll do results to amaze me that people can because there's so much, There's so much just amazement in when you think of the planet itself heart lling around the Sun this great ball of fire you know that this is a atomic energy generator and that's just one little speck of flame in there in the millions billions of stars in the Milky Way hey the wonderment of it all so your love for life is clearly unabated but you were telling me the iron jumper is on coming out of the closet anymore and you were offered a lot of money to wear them were you you were saying you had one stage an hour we just signed up Columbia Records and we thought we had made the ultimate amount of money over a hundred grand you know advance and the next thing a a clothing company offers us quarter of million to give our names they are in sweaters how we debated it and we had a meeting and we said well we're making a pile of money at seeing Andy the only livelihood of the people who make the sweaters back him usually the poorest part of Ireland you know Donny Gaul Connemara nettles the Aran Islands are we don't take the bit out of their mouth for the sake of money that's going to be so it was an ethical decision. I mean you use letting you see it's quite a story I mean people know obviously that you've been in the business and you've been vastly influential figure for 40 odd years. but I think they forget that the Clancy's in their day were were the musical export equivalent of you to you were the biggest Irish musical it was a frightening world I it was frightening and I can see why somebody like Dylan would be frightened of it because I remember coming out of a concert in jostle by the crowd one night and I get this job in the arts and I look around and there's two teenage girls and one of them has a straightened out safety pin that she's just pulled out of my bottom and she said he was up in Belfast he's real he's training that's his blood they are high she's blood so if you prick him he does lead and if you go to the Gaetti you will see him performing eyes at all this week and up until Saturday yeah and it's like a box of chocolates you got Ronnie Drew Finnbar furey, Johnny McEvoy myself and the four different flavors andJim McCann [Grace Song ] holding it off it doesn't get any better than that does it and all getting better with age like a good wine. __________________
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Ronnie Drew entertained the people of Ireland and the world as a singer an actor a storyteller and a legendary character the achieved international recognition and success as a performer but for many he remained above all the quintessential Dubliner they were distinctively Dublin they were associated with the one to what prior to Dublin.
[Bono ]Ronny's appeal could cross the generations as well as other frontiers well he was a mind man you know, he was a man you know he was out here and about not yet I found a most generous character a rough exterior a green kind in in hack you know even to the very end he'd still be my hero if you line them up like the hardest Manitoba's and so the hardest man in rock and roll just think of all the most obnoxious swaggering rock singers and it's a girl's choir next to Ronnie True it's hard now to imagine what the traditional music scene was like in Ireland fifty years ago. There was almost a kind of an apology for singing old Irish ballads and were presented in a very genteel kind of parlor like setting. Traditional Irish music certainly as presented by RTE, tended to be reserved and staid and extremely polite there were all kind of very nice kind of people that they had jobs and they had you know played fiddling the evening and little service very nice people but grant really taking any chances Ronny Drew introduced a voice that was not only original but shocking and the first time I heard his voice I was totally totally shocked I couldn't believe that a human being could could rent render a voice like this shovel in a pub that his voice has been described as. The sound of coal being scraped across the floor, the thing was something that he discovered he had naturally when he opened his mouth to speak, this is the sound that came out when you heard anything use of a seven-foot beret back and my bud it's the voice of a nation and all the road miles that nation has it's all our anguish all the melancholy it's not only explained by the rain and the Brits it's put it all in there it's all in his voice what my train said 25 what it wasn't what a rich hog the problem with the Ballad tradition can be sentimentality his just so stoicism and in the face but not running with the motion but actually countering the motion that's his power as a singer what I've heard of me Peck when a Russian shake and this place that he sang in yet was Deborah's law he was saying so you're like he was talking to you not all right and ain't better a car hey to play but what Ronny's first group had been formed in a Dublin pub he was our need an invited me . permit singing our music to be played on its premises but I was all about to change and one night my name again and which have asked patio Donohue there was Christmas around Christmas could we play Ward's are just warm just born you know and it hasn't stopped since like you remember what that one song was I can't actually to tell you the truth but err who do not make up something yeah one probably Finnegan's Wake here wait Finnegan to make okay yeah no it all was Finnegan's Wake yeah lots of Honor filling in the wake one morning Tim would rather fall. Ronny's ballad group soon recruited another extraordinary and charismatic singer he was just returned from London I already met Luke at the International burr just out he'd come home from England and we got into conversation and kind of hit it off hit the loop we go to Donoho's you know go up and have a drink Ronnie's group began to attract attention perhaps as much for their attitude and appearance as their music mrs. Finnegan call soon they were in demand all over the city and cake then - Queen generally speaking we're looking for Walker or looking for with no ambition to be what we're looking for we're all pretty much laid looking for attention look em well no I don't think they are extend Chapleau what we're probably looking looking to be loved or something I suppose. Yes exactly, and looking to face looking to fit somewhere because like all my life I'd never fit in anywhere you know and so if we apply there you know be and then it just became a thing we did you know his way how was an album there was no formal leader of the band but Ronnie usually appeared as its frontman oh he's well dressed right he mastered that Savoy you know like good suit boy you know shrimp a ignore the rest of it yeah an end like he looked like he slept in his dustbin for a few minutes and the rest don't look like they'd be steadily slept in Gospels Oh night you know cuz you always look smart and arrested every not me it was always the frontman band was still called the Ronnie drew ballad group something that made Ronnie field somewhat uneasy Ronnie didn't somehow like to have I think you defer to it as the responsibility and case something to go wrong to be point under the finger of accusation at him Ronnie wanted a new name for the band it came from James Joyce's book Dubliners which Luke Kelly happened to be reading at the time he just said why don't we call it the Domino's wait that's her Pig what oh oh you went home on Monday night as the song that gave The Dubliners their big breakthrough caused some local controversy I think there was probably a bit of an element of rebellion and everything everything we did and her attitude was very much like take us or leave us this is just the way we are I don't guess any album still you cannot see seven drunken nights was banned by RT the song could be played or squalor but the English version was judged unfit to be heard by Irish ears . John Sheehan is a prominent figure in the Irish music scene, known for his exceptional talent as a singer and musician. With a career spanning over five decades, Sheehan has made a significant contribution to the Irish traditional music genre, both as a solo artist and as a member of the legendary Irish folk band, The Dubliners. His unique voice, soulful performances, and mastery of traditional instruments have captivated audiences worldwide, making him one of Ireland's most beloved and respected musicians.
Born on May 9th, 1939, in Dublin, Ireland, Sheehan was raised in a musical family. His father, a skilled tin whistle player, introduced him to traditional Irish music at a young age. Sheehan's interest in music grew as he listened to his father and other family members playing together. He soon began learning the tin whistle and later picked up the mandolin and fiddle. By the age of sixteen, Sheehan was already playing music in local pubs and clubs, honing his skills and developing his unique style. In the early 1960s, Sheehan joined forces with Ronnie Drew, Luke Kelly, Barney McKenna, and Ciarán Bourke to form The Dubliners. The band quickly gained popularity for their energetic performances, infused with humor and a deep love for Irish traditional music. Sheehan's powerful and emotive voice, coupled with his expert instrumental skills, became a defining feature of The Dubliners' music. The band's success was unparalleled, with hit songs such as 'Seven Drunken Nights,' 'The Wild Rover,' and 'The Irish Rover' becoming staples in the Irish music landscape. Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, The Dubliners continued to tour and release albums, solidifying their place as one of Ireland's most iconic bands. Sheehan's contributions to the group were critical, as he was not only a talented musician but also the band's arranger and musical director. His arrangements added depth and complexity to the traditional songs they performed, further cementing their status as pioneers of Irish folk music. In 1988, Sheehan decided to leave The Dubliners to pursue a solo career. This marked a new chapter in his musical journey, where he explored his own unique sound and style. He released several successful albums, including 'The Marino Waltz' and 'The Marino Suite,' which showcased his talent as a composer and arranger. Sheehan also collaborated with renowned musicians such as Van Morrison and U2's Bono, further expanding his musical horizons. Despite his solo success, Sheehan continued to collaborate with The Dubliners on various occasions, including their 30th-anniversary tour in 1992. The band also reunited for a farewell tour in 2012, which marked the end of their illustrious career. The Dubliners' legacy lives on, and their impact on Irish music is immeasurable, with Sheehan being a crucial part of their success. Throughout his career, Sheehan has received numerous accolades and recognition for his contributions to Irish music. In 2006, he was awarded an honorary doctorate from the University of Limerick for his outstanding achievements in the field of Irish traditional music. Sheehan has also been recognized by the Irish government for his cultural contributions, receiving the prestigious Lifetime Achievement Award in 2011. Apart from his music, Sheehan is also known for his philanthropic efforts and support for various charities. He has been involved in numerous charity concerts and events, using his platform to raise awareness and funds for various causes. Sheehan's charitable work is a testament to his kind and generous nature, making him not only a musical icon but also a beloved figure in his community. In conclusion, John Sheehan is a true legend in the Irish music scene, with a career that has spanned over five decades. His exceptional talent, unwavering passion for Irish traditional music, and innovative arrangements have left a lasting impact on the genre. Sheehan's contributions to The Dubliners and his successful solo career have solidified his place as one of Ireland's most influential and beloved singers. His musical legacy will continue to inspire future generations and keep the spirit of Irish music alive. Interview with John Sheehan of The Dubliners by Gay Byrne in 2017 we are recording this interview on the 19th of May which just happens to be the 77th birthday of our guest John Sheehan, and we join in wish you a very happy birthday. Anyway not only that but we are recording this interview in the casino in Marino which was John's choice of venue. Give me a little more about that John please ? yeah they're just just building a neoclassical building dating back to the 1750s I think it was part of landscape of Marino, and I grew up a broader aloof kind of a building but we all had a notion that someday we would visit this place and find out what's going on in there and it's full of trickery yeah some as full of optical illusions you know, and point it when you view it from the outside it looks like it might be an antechamber inside. But there's I think 16 rooms and of course is on your home turf let's let's, let's talk about your parents. Mary I know they were both from Limerick and they had five of you three girls into two boys yeah and your father was a Garda in store Street, without through it overall a lovely childhood in you and absolutely a very happy childhood a very contented house very peaceful a loving relationship between my modern father and between all of us that don't observer a rail or any any harsh words uttered by learning religious and religious in the traditional way. I suppose was regular Mass every Sunday and even a devotions and confession once a week and we had the family rosary every evening, and if I had pearls in and we were about to sneak out the door without her college boy hold on there a minute lads kneel down and say the Rosary upon taking more than 10 or 15 minutes so the power should be roped in and they get a mystery each as well as you know and we all net around the fireplace and we each took a chair, next to the chair with our heads against the back of the chair dangling the rosary beads you know but it wasn't such a pious occasion and some respects because my mother was a bit of a character and she'd be dangling the rosary beads and it was a little pet cat that we had and he'd be gone for the beads a coercion would be all trying to keep back to giggles because we father was a bit more Stern and put more serious you know was there a lot of music in the house not in not in the early days although both parents had a great appreciation of traditional music My mother, I remember my mother going around the house to her household chores she should be singing all the time seeing little songs to herself and the father had a great knowledge of traditional Irish music and could lift a lot of tunes you know now you sure the class I know with Paddy Moloney of destroyed and there is another parallel with Paddy because he was on this program and he told us on that occasion that his parents had lost a child in infancy boy or he paddy was born preferably and that that death cast a shadow over his childhood you mean. Now tell me about the little brother that you never got. Okay yeah yeah well if another brother, brother Genesis a year in nine months older than me and he was a half twin as they used to say the other little boy he died when he was about three or four weeks old and he was christened John ah, and when I came along his name was a very gifted to me and apparently that was a tradition in the old days you know if a boy died his name would be saved for the next to came along and it's Mazin dad very strong material maternal instinct my mother up to the age of well into her 80s whenever she talked about this little boy who died you could see a little trickle of a tear coming into the eye even after all these years she felt that bond and that lasts you know and I suppose part of the potential that had died with him and sometimes in a daydreaming kind of a way you know myself I think that maybe because I was gifted with his name maybe in a sense that I might be acting out to life that he might have lived you know and maybe he might have been a fiddle player musician or whatever you know So tell me about the Christian Brothers in Marino John. Well they were like the Christian Brothers every parent except with a couple of exceptions as well and by and large I think it was a case of learning true fear that the threat of the letter was always there you know and but we had one one wonderful broader a broader McCaffrey and we had him for singing lessons that was part of the curriculum down yet he learned how to sing and how to read music and the tonic sulfur touring it was all that he'd also need oh he brought it in whistling to the class one day and played a coupla tunes for us and we were all mesmerised and then he said but anybody like to learn to play course Saur Saur Saur Saur everybody in the class had their handle so after after the week or two in with Lee he taught us the dawning of the day Raglan Road melody now and some of these simple tunes you know and after a couple of weeks I obviously had a bit of a gift for music and it was beginning to show at this stage but it being boastful because I remember coming back and I played the tune from he said you showed you hit but in that grace note there and I said nobody are just is it okay so that slowly but did you just do it yourself and I said yeah and that's the way it went you know you obviously had a talent mm-hmm and the minute you mentioned talent religion and belief and God comes into it because right I believe that is a god-given talent and therefore I'm asking you do you think that you have a god-given talent or part is it yeah I think it is I think it is a god-given gift okay and I think everybody is born with some gift and I think the prime purpose of Education really is for the educator to discover what gifts each child has and then to foster and nurture that gift and and progressively whatever way they can and in my case yeah definitely a god-given talent where else could have come from let's do it this way I look at it okay now and the Christian Brothers in sing Street and in Marino and all over the place the the stated objective was to give you an education to get you through the intercession the Leaving Cert and please got a grand job in the civil service of the banqueting right yeah yeah but they made no bones about saying that the real reason you were there was for the the class from 12:00 to 12:30 every day without exception which was Catholic theology and catechism and religious knowledge and so on. How much of that has stuck to the 77 year old john sheehan ? I, I think it sticks with everybody it's kind of ingrained into as a as a young person and who made a warrior. God made a world and all these ritual kind of questions and answers and in the Catechism I often think back and some of the big words were used in the Catechism you know why do we call that day God on which Christ died so painful and ignominious death no ignominious for a seven-year-old. and hell and eternal flames damnation Freud in the PJs if you you know then you start thinking for yourself you think eternal flames like flames can't last for eternity flames are something confined to a time zone and a finite zone you know just knows the saints eternal flames part of the joy of doing this series of programs within the meaning of life is that you find out that so many people were already doing something else before they ended up doing what they do I mean who could have believed that Gabriel born the other Gabriel boy yes with a spoiled priest or more or Paddy Moloney was in the building trade very contracted Trey oh yeah or the Penta no Carroll was a waiter and a very good way yes I know that because he told me right yeah yeah. And you went to work for the ESB you're a qualified electrician you're a draftsman and if you would stayed with the ESB John, you would not be sitting on a fat pension from the ESP at this stage in your life and when network yet you would be and the legs back if you'd only stayed so so what the the amazing thing is that you you had the courage at some stage to leave the security of that you can get on it doing something else yeah again the steered the overriding loaf of music I think when you balance that against a good pension of the job the music wins out you know and I was I ended up my career in there in the ESB as a draftsman for five years and during that period I'd started playing with the Dubliners and in those days you could take your annual even couple of days here and there until you got into the sick leave state and I was at that stage and and I got my brother Dennis to bring up one day and say John is sick today won't be in and then my boss called me and the next day we were doing a gig off in Belfast at night you see in the Ulster Hall called me and the next day and produced a copy of the urged and Dubliners had a marvelous reception the Ulster our last night and he said yep he got over your sickness okay you know so that was a signal to me to think about retiring and go for the music full-time you know through years slight propulsion into making up your mind I remember having a chat with my father about it and just to get his imprimatur on it as it were and he said said well he knew the lads were rough-and-ready and it was no great and future future in that the way things looked and he said well I'll sure give it a go love that's what you want to do have a go of it and if it doesn't work out the lowers be roof over your head here there were the exact words he used so you left the ESB and you join The Dubliners and you got roughly in or about 1964 and it finished in ER about 2012 with 48 50 years yeah when most groups last two years or three years years even the Beatles only got 10 years out of it how did that stay together how did that yeah one of the most volatile groups in the public absolutely yeah but yeah it was a volatile kind of a situation and kind of a baptism of fire in a way because with the actual day I gave in my notice to the ESB we had a meeting that evening and it wasn't in O'Donnell is because it was meant to be. A business meeting, we headed across the road and only I see I think barely accidentally kicked Ronnie in the shin under the table and Ronnie Drew Thought it was on purpose and there was tables of pints all over the place into the fu and fu and that's the end of the whole bloody lot now and I'm driving home with Bob Lynch who had joined the group with me and Bob said what's going to happen now and as it's you so I don't know I've given hope me good pension to put you up today and Ronnie I get a ring from Ronnie two days later Sid are you ok for Friday ? where we're down and Mullingar I said that I taught a group broke up the other day Ronnie I don't again it also that happens every couple of weeks so that might be on you reassurance I got and after that it doesn't have gone and kept going fifty years later I think part of the reason be said that longevity I think part of the reason might be that we never had any long-term plans when you're free and easy like we were you know we just worked from week to week month to month and it's just a bit of an adventure that went on and on and on you know away from using for a mode. I want to hear about Mary Morgan from Holly Bay County bond and I want to know where you met and how you met and unloads a double first sight and and what happened then and yeah Mary's from County mountain a wonderful girl that the backbone of my life and Mary was friendly with Bob Lynch and his voice I was doing gigs with Rob Lynch before we became inducted into the into the governor nurses aware and Bob would say it was worth maybe if we were able to get better give Mary a ring and see if the kids are okay she was baby settlers kids so whatever ever having met Mary I conjured up the picture of an old an old lady minding the kids you see so anyway I was up in Bob's house one day and I met this Marian said oh this is a totally different marriage from the woman I'd imagined and there was just a natural spark between us I think a natural kind of empathy straightaway and that's how it started you know and we we we made out for about a year and a half together before then because we got married and settle down and and she was fully aware of the discipline of being in The Dubliners oh absolutely yeah Because she had been at a number two gigs and she could see that it was a setup that might last too long you know that you couldn't be betting on a pension .We'll bury it or anything like that and a lot of night work and a lot of traveling that's right Jen but Mary was great with the kids and she never she never Tretton them with wait till your father comes home she always dealt with any little problems or missed behaviors as they happen she left with them herself and and to have great respect for Mary and good respect for yourself four or five kids coming back to the Dubliners again you would Mary saved up and you managed to buy a semi in in Rohini Romania and and so you you the two of you looked as if you were a respectable accountant or or the local bank manager or something instead of being a member of one of the most volatile and noisy and and rambunctious groups in the business and where you that were you the minder for the day I suppose a boss in a way I mean the rest of them up to that point had led quite a bohemian kind of lifestyle no regular jobs or anything like that whereas I came from a conservative kind of a background if you like and I straightaway I could foresee a certain role that I could play and putting more of a structure on on this outfit you know that it was wonderful raw undisciplined kind of talent there and I could see certain it could be harvested in a certain way and promoted in a certain way and I became but I sometimes described us that the mortar between the bricks like who took care of the money and things and the accountancy and the return. Yes that that became part of my function and because in the beginning like whatever came in on the door just avoided opened up as it and I began to say well what about the petrol money for the cars were used to get to the gig and should we not be thinking of investing on some sound equipment for ourselves for later on instead of pouring it out all the time and they're not sure well if you want to look after that UD okay come on go ahead and do whatever you have to do and that that worked fairly well for a while until the phones were running a little bit low and I've given a note amazin down in Galway after a gig one-one knife so this in John no deductions tonight and we've families to feed and children to feed and I thought cheese may be even better Shan this lot with these deductions you know so I gave in anyway and I said okay there's the divvy out for the night and I went off for the little one came back and here would afford them open high stools with Havana cigars and large Brandy's which are necessities the life episode that was the thing they said we need assessment necessities alive and I said you and your necessities the local fact is anyway it just it just amazes me that you stayed sane in the middle of all of that and still playing the music and still doing your job I'm still looking after them like a father figure yeah there was an element of that as well you didn't drink at this stage no no I had to point ear peon actually as a matter of interest have you ever taken alcohol oh yes but in moderation at what age did you start I'm not sure I would have been in my early thirties I think 31 or 32 maybe but that'd be after a concert in a restaurant then I would never drink and never have drunk before before again. let me ask you about Siobhan C okra Owen and cola your own children yeah your father you said was a little bit strict on on you rather more strict than your mother how strict were you on your own children John growing up I suppose it would give you a clear answer saying not strict enough but that wouldn't be true because there are pretty good kids and I didn't I didn't have to be in any particular way disciplined to keep them in manners and teach them good manners and how to behave and how to respect each other and all those kind of I suppose you could call them Christian values really we gave him a concept of goddess pose in the same way as we picked it up ourselves God is a holy man up in heaven not in disguise and we're looking at his like the father figure of us all of our human kind and you pray to him to be good and to be holy and those kind of those kind of general things now your children have produced five grandchildren including little sighs who died that's right yeah and whatever you think of something like that I think of Stephen Fry who caused a big controversy on this program. Yes when I asked him what would he say to God and he went for questioning this omniscient omnipotent God little babies with bone cancer he said what is all that about eating what is all that about he wants to ask God in his anger and I just wonder when something like that happens to you and your little grandchild dies in infancy did you rail against God or did you find consolation in the fate that you had and I supposed to faith those give us consolation. I didn't get angry or don't think I need the family got angry. There was a sadness okay and a definite sense of mourning but at the same time consolation in the notion that this little infant is has gone to Heaven to its reward, which which is another thing that fascinates me but but that must be like for an infant to die and be suddenly cast into the presence of God without having any knowledge for knowledge of a God or the language to express something about regard beforehand it must be an amazing and amazing feeling for that child and I suppose that might be the consolation that we have an angel we have an angel or the saints in heaven looking operas and likewise my brother John Dennis's have twin at the core teammates are okay there's there's two angels in the family one is a grand grand uncle angel of the other and they're consoling thoughts but at the same time there's a deep sense there's a deep sense of mourning there and and a lot of a potential life and what it might have been and what it might have achieved you know. So you mentioned God ,and tell me about God what what how do you envisage God and I think into probably two different images one would be the image of God out of the Bibles and the drawings of this tall six foot rod man with the long hair bit of a beatnik look as opposed about him but that would be one picture the other picture would be and looking at the night sky and being enthralled with the wonder of creation looking at stars as if they were still here and they've gone out of existence thousands of years ago and thinking about the vastness of creation and realizing that this couldn't have happened by chance there must be a superintelligence up there who created all of this that would be another image of God and the disciples and the Apostles and all of those guys what were they as far as you're concerned ah there are a bunch of fishermen and beatniks a bit bit like the governors ended up at one stage and say no particular jobs and dozen around but were attracted by this . His powerful presence and and followed him and became his disciples but Jesus Christ I would think of as God incarnate if you like he came down and took on a human appearance and dwelt amongst us and I suppose taught us how to lead better lives. love your neighbor as yourself I think if we all obeyed that principle we have a very happy world they're there they're simply random but gardener and do you pray and I do I wouldn't be one for saying loads of Hail Marys and our fathers or even saying the rosary nowadays but I think to say the Lord's Prayer very slowly and think of the meaning of all the words that you're saying it, I think that's more much more powerful than meaningful than than rattling off 50 Hail Mary's in a rosary you know, like a chant or a mantra but when you say to your prayer I think composing a piece of music could be a prayer. And I think music is very much a spiritual language a language of the mind the language of thoughts and the transfer of that thought into something material like a piece of music. That's something that transition is something that fascinates me I'm not sure if I'm answering the question, yes indeed you are. So you don't , are you saying to me that you don't pray for things or do you no no I I don't I'm not sure of its right to pray to achieve something or to get get some material benefits if they're the right thing for you together I think God will say did you get them anyway but I think it's more appropriate to pray and Thanksgiving for all the gifts that we do have and and would you go to Mass regularly now . No to be honest with you know I'd be a bit Luke would be a lukewarm Catholic and that in that respect and I think that that happened I suppose over a period of Tooting and baking up on a Sunday morning and having to go off somewhere else or not going to the trouble to find out if there is a church around the place. But, but I think of God nearly every day and say my head my prayers and my own and my own fashion. I think it's a good community for people to get together then and pray and meet each other what happens when we die John as far as you're concerned. Do you expect to see Ronnie, Luke Kelly and Barney again ? no no no we won't be sitting around having cups of tea and chats about chatting about the old world and but, but I think we'll meet each other in a spiritual sense and I think to be a very strong bonding between us by virtue of the fact that we're about experiencing the same divine God, this wonderful spiritual presence. the bad fellows, do you think that there is a comeuppance for bad people. Is there a general Judgment Day ? well hell is a common picture I suppose above a place of punishment for people who don't lead good lives but I think the eternal flames a hell I think they were invented by the early Christian churches to frighten us into holiness but kind of an analogy I thought of recently about heaven is that it's like a big theatrical show and the people look at the front who have led very good lives they're very clear vision of the whole show and as you progress back through the theater division gradually diminishes in proportion to the lives that these are people led and eventually you get to the baddies at the back and I imagine they have a very blurred image of God They being unsure of what but what's going on you know and because they haven't, they haven't worked during their lives as a to develop a capacity for happiness and for them to have a glimpse of God I think would be like saying Beethoven for a snail or taking a pig on a holiday be that meaningless you know so I think that's dared hell I think we all have fragments of the goodness of God in us and that's our spirit I suppose and, and there's a hunger within the spirit to be reunited with God and I think the real hell is the separation of, not a unification reunification being fulfilled that'll be my general kind of notion of. Okay a second last question for you John now on your 77th birthday what is the meaning of life for you ? I think it's a kind of a trial period I think the idea is to lead as good a life as we can be kind to other people to do goodness whenever wherever you can, and then in the way of your your fellow man so if we're all kind to each other you go don't share, don't be frightened, I think, I think that's what a good life is about that would be a wonderful world yeah absolutely idyllic I suppose yeah final question. suppose it's all true John. All that you were taught by the Christian Brothers and you end up at the pearly gates and you meet God what will John G and say to God hmm, I'd probably say something like well God I would have been happy to be a speck of dust in your creation but you went further than that. He gave me a soul and I'm eternally grateful for that, that should do it. Is there any chance of a little tune before you leave us on your birthday yeah sure well do you have a little oh you do I would sure I knew you are always ready but this very building here was the inspiration for this tune. The Marino Waltz , ooh happy birthday John Sheehan thanks for any happy returns to you that was a bless you thank you God Created The Universe From The Institute For Creation Research, Podcast Hello everyone welcome to the creation podcast a show where we discuss the science that confirms scripture thank you to all of our listeners and viewers for tuning in Im your host Ivana and my guest today is Dr Jake Hebert icr research scientist and physicist. Thank you for joining us today. My pleasure Well Dr Hebert today we wanted to talk about the big bang theory so i know that neither one of us subscribes to this idea but could you give our viewers just a 30 000 foot view of what this theory entails. right it's the idea that you know billions of years ago the universe was much smaller than it is now and for some reason space exploded. If you will it's not an explosion in the conventional sense where you have matter expanding into a pre-existing space it's the idea that space itself blew up and so the universe became much larger and supposedly you had very high temperatures at the beginning and somehow you get matter generated and here we are 13. 8 billion years later and you've got the universe as we know it today that's that's the nutshell version of the big bang.
That's pretty good. yeah so as we think about this there's, something that tells me there's a few holes in this theory, you said it's a little bit different than normal so when we talk about this where would the material for the big bang actually have come from or what issues do you see with this. Well I think yes, that's a good question I think when you really get down to it. Those who hold to this view or any kind of atheistic, you have to really, if they're going to be intellectually consistent they have to say that the cosmos in some sense is eternal now they would claim that the origin of the universe was 13. 8 billion years ago. But you still need a little bit of, you know, they claim that their theory allows for energy to more or less be produced from nothing but even they admit you need a little bit of energy to start with. And so i think really when you get down to it I do not find it people who say the universe came from nothing I think is ''that's really silly'' I don't think anybody can really take that seriously you have a little more respect for the claim that you know if they're going to say that the cosmos is eternal in some form uh because i think ultimately that's what you have to do and that's what the founder of I. C. R. Dr Henry Morris pointed out. when you really get down to it all of these evolutionary explanations for the origin of the universe they all really ultimately get back to some kind of eternal cosmos because something has to be eternal it's either the universe or it's God and if they're gonna try to deny that it's God they have to say that the cosmos in some sense is eternal maybe not maybe not the same form that it is today but that you really have to have something there at the beginning so I you know some people would say, in fact there are physicists who say the universe came from nothing but I don't think you can really take that seriously yeah, wow so as scientists discover more and more about the universe and they have to keep changing this big bang theory. So what are some of the new changes that have been made and how does that evidence add up if it does ? Well you know they've got a number of arguments, three main arguments for the big bang two of them one of them is the fact that the universe is apparently expanding now i'm not sure i accept that interpretation of the data but you have galaxies that and when you look at the light from these galaxies, it's what we call redshifted and the typical interpretation of that is that these galaxies are moving away from us and so that's understood usually to be an argument that the universe is expanding you also have the fact that big bang does a good job of accounting for hydrogen and helium. The amounts of hydrogen and helium in the universe problem with that though is that they've got an adjustable parameter in their model that they get to pick it to be what they want it to be so the fact that they get the right amount of hydrogen helium isn't really all that impressive when you realize that and it actually caused with that when they pick that particular value they get locked in, and it causes other problems for them later. And finally the other argument is what they call the cosmic microwave background radiation which is thought to be this afterglow from a time about 400 000 years after the big bang now to be fair to them that's probably their strongest argument because they did predict there would be some kind of an afterglow and creationists have some different ideas about what that might be but to be fair to them that's that's probably one of their best arguments but what is striking about that is even there are things that don't line up there are things there are details about that microwave background radiation that just don't really fit the big bang very well. And of course there's there's you know there's problems there's lots of problems with it one of my favorite and i think one of the ones that's easiest to understand for people is that when they get through doing their calculations they have convinced themselves that 95 of all the stuff in the universe is unknown it's some weird exotic substance either energy or matter that we really have no experience with and and they're claiming that they've got a good explanation for the origin of the universe even though by their own reckoning 95 of the stuff in the universe is unknown. You know that's kind of like saying you understand the recipe for a cake but you don't know what kind of a cake it is. if you really think about that that it's hard to take that seriously and I hope that more people catch on to that because that is a devastating uh critique of just the big bang it's very easy to understand. All right so, you've mentioned redshifts, can you explain what that is and how that fits in ? . Right well when you see a light from distant galaxies uh you have a continuous band of color but you also have these dark bands that you see okay these you know they call them absorption lines and those lines you know when you have an object that's moving away from you those lines tend to get moved toward the red part of the spectrum that's why they call it a redshift and so you know if you have something that's stationary you see those lines at one particular place but if it's moving away you see it at another location on that graph and so that's what we mean when we talk about a redshift, and so that's the fact that you see redshifts for these galaxies is usually interpreted to mean that they're moving away from us. Okay thank you. So as we look at all these things and for us as Christians and we're trying to follow the bible. So would it make sense for a Christian to hold to the big bang ? I don't think so. now there are Christians who say that well this is God's means of creating the universe but if you take scripture seriously there's just too many contradictions. I mean there's just the sequence of events, doesn't agree. you know for instance according to the big bang. According to their ideas about how the solar system formed, they claimed the sun came first and then the earth. The stars came first most of them anyway well the bible says it's the other way around you've got the earth or the matter that would become the earth created on day one it's not until day four the stars including the sun are created. So you've got a contradiction there with the order of events. There's no hint of millions or billions of years anywhere in the bible and I don't think anybody would ever, you know, if you were just starting from scripture would ever conclude that God used a big bang to create the universe. It's just really you know the big the one thing that i think kind of was the impetus for the big bang was the inference that the universe is expanding because that you know if you're if you believe as a uniformitarian that there's no God and that everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation, and you think the universe is expanding, well it's perfectly natural to run the numbers backwards and imagine that everything came together, from a you know, either a point or a much smaller volume sometimes billions of years ago in the past but you know if you're a Christian you don't have to make that assumption even if you assume that the universe is expanding. You could argue that maybe God created a full-blown universe, but He imposed an expansion on it for some reason. I think it's also worth pointing out that there are tests that you can do to see if the redshift is really caused by an expanding universe. There's a test out there called the tolman surface brightness test. And what i find interesting about it is as far as i know no one is claiming that it provides unequivocal support for the big bang. There was a famous astronomer named Alan Sandidge who did this test years ago and he was a Christian. But he believed in the big bang and he said well it's consistent with the big bang if you make this extra assumption. Now more recently there was a prominent big bang critic named Eric Lerner who's not a creationist but he says it doesn't that that surface brightness test doesn't support the big bang now you know I haven't, I haven't done those calculations myself I mean for all I know he could be completely messing it up. But if he's right I find it striking that nobody, even the big bang supporters are claiming that you've got this slam dunk argument, you know that it's a clear-cut win for the big bang. So I think you know, and other creationists may disagree but I think we ought to be open to the idea there may be some other explanation for those redshifts. I'm not sure we should just automatically concede of the idea of an expanding universe. I may be in a minority in that position but I think creationists need to be willing to consider other possibilities. Yeah so it seems that even with these ideas with the big bang, like there's always, there always has to be another supplement oh yeah see that's the problem they always run into is that. It's interesting you know when they were constructing the big bang there were three big problems they had with the big bang. okay two of those problems could have been solved if they would just acknowledge design or fine-tuning now remember I don't believe in the big bang okay, I don't think Christians ought to accept it. But when they're developing their theory they come to these points where you have to have fine-tuning you have to have design and but they don't want to do that so it never fails, they will you know, come to this place where they have an option they can either choose to acknowledge design, acknowledge that this is wildly improbable, that the conditions were just right for this. Or they can try to come up with some ad hoc explanation to explain the apparent design. Well they always come up with some ad hoc explanation but what happens is those ad hoc explanations cause more problems and so you need more ad hoc explanations to get around those and it just keeps getting more and more convoluted and I think most of the weirdness, maybe not all, but most of the weirdness of modern cosmology, if you trace it back you can trace it back to the big bang. You know this idea that 95 of the matter in the universe is some weird exotic stuff we've never seen before that is coming from the big bang, that is not coming from some kind of census. They've done of all the particles in the universe, I mean, come on they haven't calculated, counted all the particles in the universe added them up and figured out what's what. No the big bang, if when you follow that logic through you have to say 95 of the stuff in the universe is this weird exotic stuff. You know this idea that there are other universes out there, that's coming from the big bang. That's specifically coming from what they call inflation theory and inflation theory is what they tacked on to the big bang to solve those three big problems I was telling you about about. They could have just said well maybe, just God made it this way. maybe there's some fine-tuning here. We can't explain it, you just have to accept it, but they chose not to do that, and they do that, I mean without fail they will always swerve to avoid that conclusion. and I personally think God has designed everything in a way that any attempt to explain the universe naturally is doomed to fail. You're going to run into problems it may not be the same problems confronting the big bang for instance. Maybe you have these people who believe the universe is eternal, you know what they call a steady state universe. But you're gonna run into problems and I think it's absolutely impossible to avoid the conclusion that a miracle, or miracles of some kind were involved in the creation of the universe. I don't think you can do it and I think any attempt to explain the universe naturalistically is doomed to fail. Okay so, then if the big bang is a bust, then what is the evidence actually pointing to ? . Well let me let me give you an example the stars. They have a hard time accounting for the origin of stars or at least the ultimate origin of stars. because their stories about star formation require one of two things they either require. Dark matter okay, which nobody knows what it is, and a lot of us are doubtful that it even exists. Or it requires at least one generation of stars to already be in existence. okay so if if your theory for star formation requires a previous generation of stars, where did that first generation of stars come from ? . So really when you get down to it the very fact that stars exist is an argument against the big bang. The fact that we have these these you know they have a hard time explaining the origin of stars and galaxies, and you know I think the very fact that we see stars in the universe is an argument against the big bang. Because it's surprisingly hard to get stars formed. Now to be fair, there are some creationists who think maybe star formation might theoretically be possible today. I'm a little skeptical of that but there are some creationists who think that. But you still have to get, where did that first generation of stars come from ? And if you don't have, if you've got no way to produce that first generation of stars without a previous generation of stars or dark matter, which again we don't know what it is, we don't even know if it exists, you don't have a good explanation. And so the very fact that there are stars out there is a testament that God created them. making stars is a lot harder than people think. That's what I hear you know, it's like people think, oh it's just a big ball of,,, yes how hard can it be you know, but it but it's surprisingly tricky. Yeah wow that is incredible thank you so much for your time Dr Hebert I think we have a better understanding now of why the big bang theory doesn't quite fit within a biblical worldview. But to all of our viewers and listeners thank you for joining us you can find this podcast on youtube and our other places where you find podcasts if you have any other questions or topics that you'd like to know more about please send us a message on social media and be sure to leave a review and a rating for us so that others can learn more about us and this podcast and don't forget to subscribe for future episodes but i'm Ivana and we'll see you next time on the creation podcast. https://www.icr.org/ Do Fossils Last For Millions of Years ? Below is a transcript of a podcast by I.C.R. Research Scientist
and Paleobiochemist Dr. Brian Thomas. Hello everyone welcome to The Creation Podcast a show where we discuss science that confirms scripture I'm your host Ivana and my guest today is Dr Brian Thomas ICR research scientist and paleobiochemist thank you for being here today Dr Thomas my pleasure of course, great well today we wanted to talk about maybe one of your favorite subjects I hope and I imagine you know quite a bit about fossils but to start us off can you just tell me what is a fossil a fossil is uh just the remains of a once living thing and so we when we talk about fossil it could take a whole bunch of different forms uh it could be like a carbonized like impression where you where the organism got squished in mud and then baked and so everything that was organic turned into a thin film of carbon so you like have the outline of the creature so that's one type of fossil you have footprints that's another type of fossil and then what I was taught what a fossil is you have a bone and then the bone gets replaced by minerals so now you have a rock basically in the shape of the bone but all the original you know bone material is supposed to be gone and what I've discovered in investigating fossils firsthand is that's not usually the case and so if you have a bone that's got um it's got some minerals in it the minerals came from the outside we call it permineralization where it fills the little pore spaces in the bone of p-o-r-e these little gaps, it's partially mineralized per mineralized so that's another form of fossil but there's a rare form it's I don't know how rare it is it's becoming less and less rare but the most interesting fossil to me is just leftover animal it's like a naturally mummified carcass. So it hasn't been carbonized it hasn't been mineralized it's just a old bone it in the dirt in the ground and so what we're finding is more and more examples of these and that's really interesting because it's made of the original animal and how can it be there still you know that's the question I'm trying to answer. Wow thank you that is very interesting and if I were or if you were to ask the average scientist what kind of ages would you assign to these fossils ?. All scientists are trained to think in terms of the secular age and time scale which would be millions and tens of millions and hundreds of millions of years depending on which layer of course the lowest layers that have fossils in them would have the hundreds of millions of years age assignments attached to those layers and the fossils that are in them and and layers above that would be younger so tens of millions and then the uppermost layers uh younger as you ascend the the rock column in any given location and generally that's that's that holds true the relative timing it's older in the bottom younger at the top but the absolute age assignments I've grown sceptical of those I really have I used to believe of course it's 100 million years old because scientists have proven it and they use science to prove it and then and then later on I thought wait what science do they use and I started to investigate that and I found holes in that and then after after I began to doubt the age assignments um based on how holy the process was then I then I thought well wait a minute now there's positive evidence for recently deposited fossils in the form of these original biochemicals that are still in there because they look young they look fresh yeah that's what really piques my interest with these these fossils is the tissues in them not generally it's not whole tissues you know like a I don't know like a chunk of liver or something it's still floppy that's not what we find in the fossils it's really generally dried down real really crispy but it's original biochemistry you know you've got proteins and lipids and DNAs I guess sugars no one's done a lot of looking specifically for sugars yet but they'll find it it's there so you mentioned that they're giving these age assignments and that you know it should start oldest obviously to youngest but um how do they get to those numbers can you explain that process so part of it has to do with history so there's a historical precedent that we have to that we have to conform our our answers to and it started in the 1700s when um the majority of scientists decided yeah we're going to go with this old earth view and then there were some dissenters back then who said we don't think you guys have good science to back up this this you know eons right concept and it was philosophically driven it did not come from the data so at that even back then you know in the 1700s you had some scientists who really held sway and in other words these were the guys who had control of the the top journals so they were the top editors. and so they they would say well we're going to choose to highlight this article because it's got old earth in it and we're going to choose to not even publish that article because it mentions Noah's flood, and we want to get away from the flood why would a scientist be biased against the flood and so that bias is really what I've found in my little history searches that I've done that drove the sort of the the rise to prominence in the scientific world of old earth you know and long age thinking that's a fun question to try to answer because scientists are people yeah and so what do people do well we we uh we fill our minds with what we want to hear you know and we we build we construct little worlds in our minds that fit the kind of world that we want to be in and if we don't want god in our world because we have sins right and if I have a sin and god is like hey you have a sin. You need to you need to repent of that sin and let me save you from that sin you know Jesus said it this way men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil and so maybe that's what's driving these scientists but anyway what we have now is if I grew up as a scientist and I have to age date a certain fossil if I don't make it conform to what everyone else out there is saying then I'll be labeled not a real scientist you know I'll be I 'll be labelled a moron or an idiot and I'll be ostracized from my colleagues and I won't get any papers published and I won't get any funding so this is it's this whole is a practical side of it where you've got to have papers to get publications to get funding to put bread on your table right as a scientist but there's also a spiritual side that and both of these sides are pushing my secular colleagues anyway toward making sure that I conform to the view of the old earth view. What they've done since then is they've used all kinds of um different age dating techniques none of which work, because there is no process that happens today that could give us an age of an event in the past there's no process that can even do that you can measure decay rates But you don't know the original conditions of what was decaying into what how much of the original stuff was there in the beginning how much of the decay product was there in the beginning you don't know and has the decay rate stayed constant you don't know it has some more of that original material been injected into this into the sample or the decay product been injected into or taken out of the sample so there's too many variables to use any scientific process to determine an age uh it's not it's not a tool that science really has but everyone thinks it is everyone, and I used to also think that science determine that this is so many plus or minus 25 million years old you know they give age ranges but to make it look scientific. Anyway there's assumptions built in and no one can fill in those assumptions and so what I've found is that the best way to to determine the age of a thing is to look at historical evidence so is give a name and a likeness on a coin in an archaeological context yeah well that gives you a really tight age because you can take that name. Caesar so and so and the likeness and you can compare it with actual historical records to build a chronology for that and so what we find in the bible itself is a chronology for the whole world and that's a historical record that is reliable much more reliable than guesses you can measure isotope ratios in a rock but how do you turn isotope ratios into an age, well you have to plug in the isotope ratios into a formula, and what does the formula have ? variables, remember variables are represented by letters and so you solve the equation for the variable or whatever well these equations have variables and the variables are unknowns and it turns out that in order to solve the equation to get to obtain a age estimate you have to fill in the unknowns with guesses that's what's going on under the hood that a lot of people don't talk about you mentioned earlier that scientists can find fossils with original tissues still within them so having that original soft tissue doesn't that seem to deny the long ages you barely touched on that earlier but could you shed more light on that what the implications of finding those soft tissues are right so I just finished saying that you can't use any scientific decay process that we could measure today could see it decaying whether it's isotopes decaying or tissues decaying you can't use that to determine a specific age but you can get a clue as to the general life span or or shelf life okay for that so there are age indicators they just don't give you a solid age date okay well one of those indicators is what I'm what I wrote my thesis on right and that's that's the proteins that are in there and so on the one hand we've done experiment after experiment to verify and determine the decay rate of certain proteins and we know they're falling apart because chemistry happens. You can't keep chemistry from happening. So what chemistry happens to proteins ?. So proteins fall apart because they're reacting with water molecules they're reacting with oxygen molecules and and others and so this is a relentless process and it turns a brand new freshly formed, let's say a collagen protein so the collagen is a protein that we find in our bones and in skin and connective tissue. Let's say you've got a collagen molecule just freshly made and then the animal dies and what happens to that collagen molecule?. well oxygen reacts with it, water reacts with it and then you end up with something less than the original collagen molecule. And after a certain amount of time you end up with no collagen left. This stuff can last a long time it's what makes up a parchment and so the dead sea scrolls couple thousand years old. Those are made of parchment fragments. why are these fragments ? because the chemistry that's been going on since the 2000 years since they were chemistry happens. Chemistry happens yeah it can last a long time but it doesn't. It doesn't last a million years, based on the measured decay rates so why do we find these proteins in fossils that have age assignments of tens of millions and even hundreds of millions of years ?. The age assignments again in my experience come from the secular constructs. They cherry pick numbers that fit the belief so it's a belief-driven process this age-dating thing. And so yeah, my field of paleo biochemistry paleo bio paleo means old, bio means life chemistry means chemicals, so these are the old remnants of the chemicals of life like collagen, like proteins. So that's what I'm interested in really is how long can this stuff last, and the answer that we're getting over and over is it can't last even a million years at reasonable temperatures. So this is a decay process that is temperature dependent unlike radioisotope decay okay, it just decays at the same rate at any temperature, but that's why we have refrigerators right. So you you put your food in the fridge so that you will slow the rate of chemical reactions. It can last thousands of years, but not a million, and so it looks to me based on the fact that we have biochemicals from the original animals, that made them in fossils from the very bottom of the rock, record also fossils at the very top and fossils in between the whole rock record. It looks like the whole rock you know, stack the pancake stack of rocks that we're all standing on were all deposited relatively recently, and you know that fits, it fits the model that we have from the bible about Noah's flood happening recently and we're interpreting these rock layers as all having been most of them having been deposited in one year. So within a short time span, recently, it's totally crazy to the secular mind but it fits the data, So Dr Thomas can you tell us what about the objection that these original biochemical fossils could just be contaminants ? Oh right that was a popular theory for a while. The people who raised that objection seem to think that there's only one sample you know, and someone dropped their lunch in the test tube there or something. But we don't have just one sample we have literature in scientific technical literature going back to the 1960s. And we've actually compiled the literature on this, so we have example after example, it's from all the different continents except one. And it's from all the different rock layers except two and there's 117 papers compiled on our big list so far. And that's a fall 2021. and by the way it's dozens of different taxa so if not just dinosaur, I mean it's in a turtle shell. You've got actual skin in bird you've got bird feathers you've got swimming creatures, remnants of internal organs in sea creatures. It's in clam shells. you know there's protein inside the clam shell, so how are you going to contaminate a world worth. You can contaminate the whole world, so that's that's kind of what I answer the objection of contamination by just listing the over 100 technical literature examples. Can you just go a little bit further into explaining how the existence of soft tissues can be expected, especially for Christians ? When we're trying to combat what we've heard all our lives but we claim to be believers and we believe in scripture, so can you just help us make sure we differentiate why we would believe one or the other so the bible is very clear. Starting with creation week these are days they're normal every every day days they're ordinary days and they're defined that way. Day one is defined as morning, and evenings, that's this transition of cycling from light to darkness, this is a day then you have six of those days the first three had no sun to mark them. We don't know what marked them but that's okay. Then the third, three had a sun to mark those three days, and we've had the sun not as the definer of a day, but the administrator ever since. Then okay, so now we have days, that's how we mark time six days creation that's what the bible teaches not just in genesis 1 but in the 10 commandments written in God's hand a couple thousand years after creation on a stone tablet given to Moses. You know for in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything that's in them. And the seventh day he rested. What context is that ? Well this is why I want you to take a Sabbath day. This is the commandment. Take a Sabbath day of rest, to remember your Creator and we do. This work week, we still do it today. It came from that. There's no you know astronomical precedent that defines our work week. The seven day work week just comes from God's ten commandments and he built it into the way our societies function. So how do soft tissue or or biochemicals original biochemicals is how I would phrase it in fossils. How do they fit that view ? The flood 4,400 or so years ago. You can have tissues last 4,400 years maybe in scratches and remnants and scraps of them why do we know that ? because the dead sea scrolls, they're still around after 2000 years and that's just skin what about locked inside bone, protected, even better maybe and we know the decay rates so you measure the decay rates so you can have remnants last for, in theory tens of thousands of years actually. So we would expect to see some scraps and remnants if bacteria don't get to them. If bacteria get there as all bets are off and they eat it up, it's gobbled and gone. So by having a recent creation by having a recent flood thousands not millions of years ago that's what the Bible presents. That fits the data that we're seeing in all these original biochemicals that are throughout the fossil record on every continent except Australia but I mean it's worldwide it's like there was a giant worldwide deposition event. Where have I heard that, worldwide yeah so like Dr Clary here says it takes a worldwide cause to produce a worldwide effect so we have a worldwide effect and that is young looking biochemicals in fossils. Some of these are still smelly you know you pull them out of the ground. What's that smell ? well it's still rotting your ground because it was deposited recently that's a good way to explain it and that happens to fit what the bible says about the history of the world, and so as Christians what do we do, we say okay the bible got it right, yeah the bible does explain where we came from. The bible does explain why we have these rock layers known as flood and why these rock layers look recently deposited, stinky flood layers. You can put it that way and so if the bible got that right then and I as a Christian have more confidence than ever that anything else the bible says I can trust. Now this is the word of God and that what that means is if we're going to come to the bible as Christians and say well this part of the bible is right but that part of the bible is wrong then what I'm saying is the part that's wrong supposedly God's responsible for the bible and since God is since God wrote the wrong part then God must have made a mistake so we need to get our act together as Christians and kind of go through, are you sure that part's wrong. Are you sure you want to cast blame on God who is perfect you know. So there's a theological yeah and then then this is where I was actually, so I'm speaking from experience and saying. When I looked at these parts of the bible that I didn't that didn't agree with my secular thinking like recent creation for example, I'd go well that part can't be right but that means God can't be trusted and it comes down to who am I going to trust. Whose word am I going to trust. And so and I can trust a little bit of God it's like I'm tiptoeing toward God but what we're saying here at the institute is there's scientific evidence to support all of it, the whole Bible. God made zero mistakes, he doesn't make mistakes. And so the science does support that scripture the science of original biochemistry supports the scripture that talks about recent creation. To me that's very encouraging and I'm just hoping that our audience would be able to process all that information in light of what you shared, as far as you know really looking at what is driving the interpretation of the data. And then of course just not forgetting to trust scripture because we weren't there when the dinosaurs were buried or made but there was someone who was, and he left us his information in the Bible. So just being able to align all of that together so thank you so much for sharing and just so that our viewers and listeners would know that we have your thesis that you mentioned we actually sell it as a resource and so this would give you more of that information it's ancient and fossil bone collagen remnants and so you'll be able to find that on our website https://www.icr.org/ or if you're over here in person at our discovery center but thank you so much for sharing that with us Dr Thomas and I guess we can say the proof is in the fossils maybe you should make that also a t-shirt but to all of our viewers and listeners thank you for joining us you can find this podcast on YouTube or anywhere else you might find your podcast don't forget to subscribe for future episodes and leave us a rating and review so that others can know about us and if you had any additional questions like Dr Thomas mentioned we can't elaborate on everything in this one episode but send us a message on social media if you'd like to know more about something but I'm Ivana and we'll, see you guys next time on the Creation Podcast. |
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